Curse

Light of Cantha · Jan 06, 2012, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

With or without EBSoH? Its always a good idea to include that skill anywhere in PVE if you are using ellys.

With 19 fire magic, my Rodgorts is hitting level 26 rangers in HM shiverpeaks for 97 damage with EBSoH, that doesnt seem anywhere near as low as your numbers.

It was without, and for the most part I was hitting in the 90s-100s. But there were a few that was 60-70s, I think it was the Azures for whatever reason.

DiogoSilva · Jan 06, 2012, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light of Cantha

It was without, and for the most part I was hitting in the 90s-100s. But there were a few that was 60-70s, I think it was the Azures for whatever reason.

Those have elemental armor, I think.

Hitting for 90s-100s is what to expect from Rodgort.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You picked the easiest set of mobs out of the entirety of EotN. your video is not proving what you want it to prove.

I didnt pick the mob on purpose, they are the ones on the way to the next dungeon I was planning to do.

Swingline · Jan 06, 2012, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Many of this games bosses actually feel like... bosses. Some hurt bad because they last long enough to cause damage.

ashes · Jan 06, 2012, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Nice synergy between Mind Burn and Earthen Shackles now

Martin Alvito · Jan 06, 2012, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

Nice synergy between Mind Burn and Earthen Shackles now

I noticed that too, although I was thinking of getting the burning from spreading Elemental Flame as a cover. The problem with Elemental Flame has always been that it isn't AoE.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Many of this games bosses actually feel like... bosses. Some hurt bad because they last long enough to cause damage.

Indeed and I like that. Why should the game be so easy that everything can be beat by simply mashing two buttons? It shouldnt be, difficulty is good, especially when you turn on hard mode the game should be hard.

Elly bosses have always hurt player team because our armour is a lot lower than monster armour. But there are so many counters and ways to adapt to each area that overcoming challenges is what makes the game fun.

People seem to expect, and want to steamroll through the whole game with just one same skill bar, and the same two skills (Invoke and Chain Lightning), and whinge and whine about any slight nerfs to those while everything else becomes much more usable and fun to play.

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 06, 2012, 10:54 PM // 22:54

I noticed that HM is a LOT easier after this change. Everything just dies so fast. Also, all the healing from mobs is quite inefficient now due to health increase.

ashes · Jan 06, 2012, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Having fun

Kunder · Jan 06, 2012, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

http://i44.tinypic.com/2wqs5rd.png

Having fun

Why no EBSoH?

One interesting thing to note is that Phoenix with EBSoH + 20 fire magic = just under 300 damage. Throw in an EBSoW and/or an echo and go to town.

Gruff · Jan 06, 2012, 11:08 PM // 23:08

I like the update it changes things up a little and throws some different options ontop of normal builds. From a pvp perspective it makes frontlining a bit harder with more weakness and double dmg from the blind surge for example though.

Water ele was lots of fun to play with trident, I do expect Gust to see some revision though, the tanai prison not ending on fire dmg is a nice tweak also.

Would like to see dervs pulled back a bit as they still do far to much without penalty when compared to warrior skills.

Ensign · Jan 06, 2012, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Sorry, but my video proves you wrong. Please stick to commenting about PVP only.

Your video demonstrates quite clearly that you are in the 'mid-level' PvE demographic at whom this update was targeted.

It demonstrates that it was a success in that regard.

It invalidates nothing I said about the effects of this update on the edge of PvE power. The very top was pushed down, albeit very slightly. The middle was brought up substantially.

Swingline · Jan 06, 2012, 11:41 PM // 23:41

This update gives Eles an option besides AP. Before it was run Invoke or AP, if not one of those you were deemed useless. The only reason AP is still around is because it dodged the nerf bat this time around from Anet, by not changing it directly and keeping HM armor above NM. Since SoS was targeted it's safe to assume AP could be next, maybe even the biggest problem skill of all.

Ensign · Jan 06, 2012, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light of Cantha

Definitely a step in the right direction tho, especially for casuals.

Absolutely. In particular, I think that your generic Fire guy feels a whole lot better now - not optimal, probably, but random Fire guy is probably on par with random Dom guy or random Necro guy in hard mode after this update.

Also Water guy, while almost certainly not ideal, has some rather good elites to use (Shatterstone), that combined with the armor change probably make that character effective enough.

In all those senses, this was a success; there are likely a lot more Ele builds that are "good enough" for hard mode now (again, probably not perfectly optimal, but definitely good enough to play through with).

On the flip side, losing Invoke + Chain hurts. Those were pretty strong heroes, strong enough to make it into builds that as far as I could tell were close to optimal; and they're completely gone now. Yeah, you can run Invoke or Chain still, but it's not enough to carry a weak line.

I'll have to experiment with Fire heroes some more; there might be something there. I'm not terribly optimistic though; I suspect Searing Flames heroes are still the best you'll get out of them given the AI constraints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

This update gives Eles an option besides AP. Before it was run Invoke or AP, if not one of those you were deemed useless.

I agree with this. While I don't think any of these new elites will give you a *better* build than AP, the armor update plus buffs definitely brought a lot of other things up, brought them to a power level where they can contribute and carry their weight in all but the hardest of hardcore groups.

One of the things I really enjoyed about the old WiK hard mode mobs was that they didn't have the armor boost from higher levels - their hard mode casters had 60 armor, and I would take a Mind Blast or Invoke bar into those areas when I didn't feel like playing a combination deck, so to speak - and it didn't feel terrible.

Hopefully the rest of hard mode feels that way now.

Swingline · Jan 06, 2012, 11:49 PM // 23:49

I am amazed that they keep creating skills that require being split but they won't split Invoke. Invoke was air magics bread and butter for decent damage.

@ensign: Unfortunately HM armor was not reduced to as low as most expected. I VQed Sparkfly Swamp and Searing Flames did 79 damage to casters. Obviously HM armor was not reduced to the flat base armor of player professions.

DiogoSilva · Jan 06, 2012, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Elemental Attunement and Elemental Lord/ Glyph of Elemental Power increase the damage of skills like Rodgort's Invocation about as much, if not more than, EBSoH (at 19 fire, it also makes its burning last 4 seconds). From 16 fire to 19 fire, Fireball/ Liquid Flame damage gets increase by 21. Phoenix by 21 and by 15.

That + EBSoH might be an interesting combo. Gonna try that out.

EDIT:

Quote:

Hopefully the rest of hard mode feels that way now.

After vanquishing one area in Vabbi, it did feel that way too me.

After this update, the air magic line might be the weakest for PvE because it suffers the most from lack of good non-elite options. From what I've tested, Blinding Surge can substitute Invoke on PvE air magic builds, if on a player (not sure about heroes). It has its ups and downs. And maybe something can be done with Gust or Glimmering Mark.

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

After this update, the air magic line might be the weakest for PvE because it suffers the most from lack of good non-elite options. From what I've tested, Blinding Surge can substitute Invoke on PvE air magic builds, if on a player (not sure about heroes). It has its ups and downs. And maybe something can be done with Gust or Glimmering Mark.

B surge sucks on heroes. Invoke was just wonderful because it was good, simple damage that had good range. It only hit 3 targets so it was not OP. If Anet was worried about it becoming a problem in PvE then that just means the AI needs improving for many elites to become worthwhile.

They just need to take away the exhaustion and cap the armor pen to not go below 60 armor.

Apok · Jan 07, 2012, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

http://i44.tinypic.com/2wqs5rd.png

Having fun

I don't get it. Literally none of those skills were changed damage-wise. You could always have done that before the update.

qazwersder · Jan 07, 2012, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Got to say I generally agree with Jeydra and Ensign with regards to the changes in the Ele skills. I think whilst it does offer a lot of alternative fun builds, for the full all out damage role it offers very little in the way of change apart from some niche areas. Searing flames and Assassins Promise are still going to be the way (Discounting Invoke due to its changes). I can also see Shatterstone getting some use and possibly shockwave. Any dual attunement builds do become slightly more powerful but the issue her was more that your elite was taken by energy management more than anything else.

The changes to armor levels is the bigger news here, this is what will get ele's back into play.

Changes to non elite skills shoud have a greater effect the the elites but overall I do like what they've done, it adds a bit of extra variation to the less serious players.

Edit: @Apok, I noticed this also.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2012, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Im not talking about nor bothered with NM, anything works in NM. In fact in that case, Searing Flames would be better than Invoke.

Invoke is a good build, but in HM PVE it wasnt close to as good as people are pretending / hyping it up to be. Against larger mobs, both Energy Surge and Mistrust easily dealt far more raw damage than Invoke ever could, and the conditions for them were easily met in PVE (also for Cry of Frustration, Overload and Unnatural sig).

Bullshit. Some of the fastest PvE clear times posted were made by me, using one or sometimes two Invoke Eles. Invoke's cooldown way overpowers ESurge's and anything in the Domination line except Spiritual Pain (whose AoE damage is uncertain), and it often does more damage than Cry of Frustration, Overload and Unnatural Signet too, up until the AoE effect anyway (i.e. you can hit 5 targets with CoF, but not with Invoke). If you think your Ele build is so good, prove it with a video in a difficult area. Bjora Marches HM is not a difficult area, in fact it fits entirely with what Ensign called "mid-level and casual demographics". Go do Forgewight HM, or DoA HM. Or go VQ a full area, and post the screenshots with /age, or there'll be this kind of nonsense floating around.

Live in your fantasy world where Invoke sucks for all I care, but talk it down at your own peril.

I agree completely with Ensign except I think the top moved down quite a bit. Those Invoke Eles were really good, filling vital niches in teams. There's no replacement. In practical testing (prior to update) VQing Silent Surf as fast as possible, SF Eles were a full 3-4 minutes slower than Invoke Eles, in an area that takes ~19-23 minutes to finish. For hero Eles to be effective at top level now the armour changes need to be larger.

@Daesu - what are the bars you're using in your Ele team?